skunk
Mar 3, 11:57 AM
Many people ignore the difference between homosexuality and homosexual acts. Many Christians insist that homosexuality is immoral. But homosexuality is a property, not an action. Nor is it a sin of omission. Homosexuality the property is morally indifferent. Homosexual acts are, I think, immoral. An action can be immoral, even if someone doesn't deserve any blame for doing it.On the other hand, people can live without morality, which is prescribed by outside influences, and live ethically, which is according to one's own lights.
I mentioned the Catholic Church's homosexual-abuse because skunk seems to think my opinions about sexual morality are feelings, not beliefs that are either true or false. Even psychotherapists I've talked with have agreed that feelings are neither truths nor falsehoods. Feelings are neither of those, but there are truths about feelings and there are falsehoods about them. If I only feel that homosexual acts are immoral, should some government outlaw feeling that way?Why would any government - how could any government - legislate your feelings? You can feel what you like, just do not dress up your personal feelings as "truths" which others should acquiesce in.
In another sense of the phrase "absolute truth," a truth is absolute when it's true whether anyone believes it or not. Even if I'm mistaken when I believe that homosexual sex is gravely immoral, it's still true that either they're moral or not moral.You may think they are "immoral", but your "morality" is yours, not anyone else's.
Some moral relativists even insist that if you believe that homosexual acts are morally acceptable, and I believe they're immoral, then we're both right. A moral relativist might say the same about the morality or immorality of gay-bashing. But someone is right when he thinks that gay-bashing is morally right, should a court punish him for gay-bashing someone?What do you think?
I mentioned the Catholic Church's homosexual-abuse because skunk seems to think my opinions about sexual morality are feelings, not beliefs that are either true or false. Even psychotherapists I've talked with have agreed that feelings are neither truths nor falsehoods. Feelings are neither of those, but there are truths about feelings and there are falsehoods about them. If I only feel that homosexual acts are immoral, should some government outlaw feeling that way?Why would any government - how could any government - legislate your feelings? You can feel what you like, just do not dress up your personal feelings as "truths" which others should acquiesce in.
In another sense of the phrase "absolute truth," a truth is absolute when it's true whether anyone believes it or not. Even if I'm mistaken when I believe that homosexual sex is gravely immoral, it's still true that either they're moral or not moral.You may think they are "immoral", but your "morality" is yours, not anyone else's.
Some moral relativists even insist that if you believe that homosexual acts are morally acceptable, and I believe they're immoral, then we're both right. A moral relativist might say the same about the morality or immorality of gay-bashing. But someone is right when he thinks that gay-bashing is morally right, should a court punish him for gay-bashing someone?What do you think?
Fearless Leader
Nov 28, 06:26 PM
dang it microsoft.
mwswami
Jul 21, 10:20 AM
If you get away from the desktop and look to the server market, however, the picture changes. A web server may only be running one copy of Apache, but it may create a thread for every simultaneous connection. If you have 8 cores, then you can handle 8 times as many connections as a 1-core system can (assuming sufficient memory and I/O bandwidth, of course.) Ditto for database, transaction, and all kinds of other servers. More cores means more simultaneous connections without performance degradation.
I agree with all you said except for the above. Most servers don't use a thread per connection model. Using non-blocking, asynchronous, or event based IO you can get a lot higher scalability with far fewer threads. But its true - you get more work done with more cores.
Multi-core systems on the server are also great for supporting virtual environments. The higher the number of cores, memory etc, the better it is for supporting larger number of virtual servers.
I agree with all you said except for the above. Most servers don't use a thread per connection model. Using non-blocking, asynchronous, or event based IO you can get a lot higher scalability with far fewer threads. But its true - you get more work done with more cores.
Multi-core systems on the server are also great for supporting virtual environments. The higher the number of cores, memory etc, the better it is for supporting larger number of virtual servers.
misterniall
Nov 29, 07:10 AM
Perhaps we should all get a rebate for every crappy album ever released by Universal. I really want some of the stuff that these record execs are smoking, on top law suits and strong arm tactics now they expect to get money from every iPod not because the have provided any service or contributed in anyway to the product. Rather, they just want it. Hell, who doesn't ... I would also like to get in on this deal. Please Apple/Microsoft/SanDisk I would like to get $0.50 for every unit you sell. Sign me up. I think it is time that artists really evaluated the balance of power. I think it is time that artists should reevaluate the distrubution of wealth in the recording industry. Perhaps that lost money isn't due to pirating like the execs want you to think.
Free money always welcome.
Free money always welcome.
BRLawyer
Aug 27, 02:56 AM
You are talking crap. It is only about industrial quality. Nothing else.
There are simply too many individual issues with the new MB and MBP here, and I do not want to repeat them. Mostly hardware, but some are related to using OSX and MSOS. You can read, so do that.
APPLE has been 'second to none' in the eyes of APPLE users, compared to who? I think MAC OS is fantastic, but it does not mean, that all those who switch now to APPLE have to accept hardware lemons to get this OS... Absolutely no excuse for over 25% crap products delivered to the customers...
Everybody knows that APPLE could have had a 40+ market share, but decided not to license out. We all would be happier now, but JOBS decided against that years back. So now we are talking about a less than 5% market share... JUst do your math: If they had a 40% share WW, we would hear millions screaming about their lemons...
It seems there's too much luck involved when buying an APPLE product right now.
When they finally get their QC act together I will gladly buy their product.
Cheers, and no hard feelings.
No hard feelings indeed, but please show me numbers and facts, not anecdotal evidence of some dozens/hundreds of people (as compared to millions of purchasers). I will take your point when you do that, thanks very much. And really, to say that 25% of Apple products are lemons is to be, at very least, extremely glib.
Besides, if Apple is able to replace/fix those that have problems, there is no reason to complain whatsoever...this is what guarantees and technical support are for.
There are simply too many individual issues with the new MB and MBP here, and I do not want to repeat them. Mostly hardware, but some are related to using OSX and MSOS. You can read, so do that.
APPLE has been 'second to none' in the eyes of APPLE users, compared to who? I think MAC OS is fantastic, but it does not mean, that all those who switch now to APPLE have to accept hardware lemons to get this OS... Absolutely no excuse for over 25% crap products delivered to the customers...
Everybody knows that APPLE could have had a 40+ market share, but decided not to license out. We all would be happier now, but JOBS decided against that years back. So now we are talking about a less than 5% market share... JUst do your math: If they had a 40% share WW, we would hear millions screaming about their lemons...
It seems there's too much luck involved when buying an APPLE product right now.
When they finally get their QC act together I will gladly buy their product.
Cheers, and no hard feelings.
No hard feelings indeed, but please show me numbers and facts, not anecdotal evidence of some dozens/hundreds of people (as compared to millions of purchasers). I will take your point when you do that, thanks very much. And really, to say that 25% of Apple products are lemons is to be, at very least, extremely glib.
Besides, if Apple is able to replace/fix those that have problems, there is no reason to complain whatsoever...this is what guarantees and technical support are for.
myemosoul
Jun 15, 02:54 PM
Went to my Radio Shack and was the only person there looking for an iPhone4, stood there for an hour from 1 to 2pm while the manager and another associate tried a million times to get me a PIN, finally they told me to go home and they would keep trying and give me a call when they got one.
45 minutes later i got a call that they finally got through and i have a PIN, they told me that even if one phone shows up at the store on release day it's mine.
Now i have to sit and wait 9 days to see what happens on release day, not betting on getting one at this point, i even had to sacrifice and order black when i wanted a white one. When white finally does come out i'm going to the Apple store and asking them to swap phones for all this trouble.
This whole process so far has been one big fat WTF!
45 minutes later i got a call that they finally got through and i have a PIN, they told me that even if one phone shows up at the store on release day it's mine.
Now i have to sit and wait 9 days to see what happens on release day, not betting on getting one at this point, i even had to sacrifice and order black when i wanted a white one. When white finally does come out i'm going to the Apple store and asking them to swap phones for all this trouble.
This whole process so far has been one big fat WTF!
damnyooneek
Apr 6, 10:25 AM
"But I JUST bought this..."
"3D, 3D, 3D."
"Wait... 4D?"
"You bought the wrong one dummy..."
"3D, 3D, 3D."
"Wait... 4D?"
"You bought the wrong one dummy..."
cloudnine
Aug 25, 04:35 PM
Over the years I have bought a lot of computers for my business from a lot of different venders. To be honest Apple hardware support has never impressed me! :mad: I have actually had much better support from Dell than from Apple.
As far as .Mac goes it is one of the most poorly supported systems I have ever used in my life. They have a lousey limited faq sheet, common problems, email support is pitiful, and they don't take voice support. .Mac is a joke for $100.00 a year.
In general Apple's entire help system in OS X sucks. Searchs within the context of an application gives you all kinds of crap from every application on the system. Also there is no depth to the system. If your problem isn't the most elementary problem possible (99% of which you can figure out yourself) then it won't be in any of the help files.
Just out of curiosity... what kind of problems could you possibly have with .mac? I mean, I've never had any email problems, Setting it up in Mail is as simple as possible... the online interface is simple...
I dunno... hearing people complain about customer service regarding .mac seems funny to me. What types of problems have you had with it?
Granted, there are problems with the mac hardware. but till date, I've found apple tech support excellent. They have always replaced my hardware with no questions asked. In fact, they replaced my whole LCD screen on my 3 year old powerbook just because of a white spot.
I wish I had such luck. Apparently if you have a 15" powerbook, they'll replace that display with no questions asked. I have a 12" powerbook without a single scratch on it that i treat like a baby... but apparently it's my fault because i put too much pressure on it... even though i use a sleeve in a cushioned pocket of a cushioned bag. o_O
ergh. :mad:
As far as .Mac goes it is one of the most poorly supported systems I have ever used in my life. They have a lousey limited faq sheet, common problems, email support is pitiful, and they don't take voice support. .Mac is a joke for $100.00 a year.
In general Apple's entire help system in OS X sucks. Searchs within the context of an application gives you all kinds of crap from every application on the system. Also there is no depth to the system. If your problem isn't the most elementary problem possible (99% of which you can figure out yourself) then it won't be in any of the help files.
Just out of curiosity... what kind of problems could you possibly have with .mac? I mean, I've never had any email problems, Setting it up in Mail is as simple as possible... the online interface is simple...
I dunno... hearing people complain about customer service regarding .mac seems funny to me. What types of problems have you had with it?
Granted, there are problems with the mac hardware. but till date, I've found apple tech support excellent. They have always replaced my hardware with no questions asked. In fact, they replaced my whole LCD screen on my 3 year old powerbook just because of a white spot.
I wish I had such luck. Apparently if you have a 15" powerbook, they'll replace that display with no questions asked. I have a 12" powerbook without a single scratch on it that i treat like a baby... but apparently it's my fault because i put too much pressure on it... even though i use a sleeve in a cushioned pocket of a cushioned bag. o_O
ergh. :mad:
wpotere
Apr 27, 12:31 PM
I suspected it was a copy, I've never trusted the president, and I probably never will.
Wow... You tap dance worse than Trump does. Just say it, you NEVER liked Obama and never wanted him as president. So your comments earlier were nothing but a lie.
Wow... You tap dance worse than Trump does. Just say it, you NEVER liked Obama and never wanted him as president. So your comments earlier were nothing but a lie.
playaj82
Aug 8, 07:38 AM
I know a lot of people are excited about Time Machine, but I was kind of worried last night when I showed it to one of my friends.
Unlike Expose, Fast User Switching, iTunes, Dashboard, etc... that have immediate impact and understanding as to why the features are so neat, Time Machine is actually rather complicated.
I explained and showed it to my friend, and she said, "so what, when I delete something it stays on the hard drive anyways"
All of us here obviously understand the significance of this program, but does anybody else think this will be difficult to market to the "average" user.
Unlike Expose, Fast User Switching, iTunes, Dashboard, etc... that have immediate impact and understanding as to why the features are so neat, Time Machine is actually rather complicated.
I explained and showed it to my friend, and she said, "so what, when I delete something it stays on the hard drive anyways"
All of us here obviously understand the significance of this program, but does anybody else think this will be difficult to market to the "average" user.
dba7dba
Apr 20, 11:47 AM
After reading some of the lawsuit, I had to post this..
http://pk.funnyseoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/2010-11-04_174623.jpg
http://pk.funnyseoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/pn_20101104170853.jpg
http://pk.funnyseoul.com/2010/11/galaxy-tab-released/
Are you aware that Apple copied the ibooks GUI from another software vendor? I remember seeing it years (like in G4 era) before ipad was out, before iBook. It was for keeping inventory of books on a mac.
I'm not gonna bother going looking for the link/screen shot but trust me, that look was used by another software vendor, BEFORE apple used it. And of course that's one reason this wasn't mentioned in the suit I'm assuming.
Edit:
Actually here it is.
http://www.delicious-monster.com/
http://www.delicious-monster.com/images/librarypage/screenshots/inspector_0_topmatter.png
Won apple design award in 2005. And when was iBooks introduced?
http://pk.funnyseoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/2010-11-04_174623.jpg
http://pk.funnyseoul.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/pn_20101104170853.jpg
http://pk.funnyseoul.com/2010/11/galaxy-tab-released/
Are you aware that Apple copied the ibooks GUI from another software vendor? I remember seeing it years (like in G4 era) before ipad was out, before iBook. It was for keeping inventory of books on a mac.
I'm not gonna bother going looking for the link/screen shot but trust me, that look was used by another software vendor, BEFORE apple used it. And of course that's one reason this wasn't mentioned in the suit I'm assuming.
Edit:
Actually here it is.
http://www.delicious-monster.com/
http://www.delicious-monster.com/images/librarypage/screenshots/inspector_0_topmatter.png
Won apple design award in 2005. And when was iBooks introduced?
Nuck81
Dec 7, 04:20 PM
So another patch for today adding mechanical damage. Must have the newest firmware...
only online so far. It was a good fix, cuts down on the bumper cars in certain rooms...
only online so far. It was a good fix, cuts down on the bumper cars in certain rooms...
deadworlds
Mar 25, 11:58 PM
I'm really not looking forward to Lion at all. It just seems like a huge step backwards for those of us that use our computers as real computers and not toys. I have an ipad, an iphone and several macs, but they each have specific uses. I don't want my desktop machine to be anything like my ipad, one is for doing real work and doing my daily stuff on, the iOS gadgets are for fun games and browsing mostly.
I LOATH the whole idea of merging OSX and iOS, they shouldn't even be related. I hate how they are ruining expose, I really don't want my stuff groups by app, I want to see every window like it is now. I have no use for "full screen" apps, why would I waste all my screen real estate only showing one thing at a time? I hate the idea of getting programs through the app store on the Mac, I refuse to do that. I hate all the gesture crap going on, sure it's fine for laptop users, but it's of no use to me on my mac pro.
I think all this is just a dumbing down of what is an amazing OS. I don't use my mac with dual displays anything like I'd use an iPad, so why put that crap in there? I just don't like the direction they are taking OSX in general, and I doubt I will upgrade from snow leopard. To me this is very sad news, the day OSX and iOS merge is the day the mac dies.
I 100% agree!
I LOATH the whole idea of merging OSX and iOS, they shouldn't even be related. I hate how they are ruining expose, I really don't want my stuff groups by app, I want to see every window like it is now. I have no use for "full screen" apps, why would I waste all my screen real estate only showing one thing at a time? I hate the idea of getting programs through the app store on the Mac, I refuse to do that. I hate all the gesture crap going on, sure it's fine for laptop users, but it's of no use to me on my mac pro.
I think all this is just a dumbing down of what is an amazing OS. I don't use my mac with dual displays anything like I'd use an iPad, so why put that crap in there? I just don't like the direction they are taking OSX in general, and I doubt I will upgrade from snow leopard. To me this is very sad news, the day OSX and iOS merge is the day the mac dies.
I 100% agree!
scelzifan
Apr 11, 03:25 PM
Sure, CLOUD is the biggest one right now. Cloud is huge, you can have 50 gb's of music at your fingertips at all times. Download speeds now with the Thunderbolt ranging from 15-50mbps . The superamoled screens are just as good if not better. The camera's are now better, both for video and pictures. The messaging system is better, you have 2 app stores to chose from. You can purchase your music and video from amazon and take it and do with it as you please, your not locked down to just apple equipment. Is that enough yet? Oh and did I mention that I get download speeds in the 30's and 40's and its unlimited?? The only 2 down falls right now are battery which is a fairly easy fix and Netflix which was working a few weeks back and will be again very soon so that problem will be solved also. I don't know how you can deny who is winning right now, it's no contest.
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toddybody
Apr 6, 11:25 AM
I bet you that you'll never see a iPad with screen resolution like 2048x1536, it's a ****ing nightmare to iOS developers. You don't understand that it's ****ing crazy, iOS interface like MacOS X interface is not scalable. Apple have to change the whole GUI before making this step forward.
what did Apple do with the iP4? Oh wait...
As far as Devs are concerned, they 2x the res for their ease. Sorry, its not that "****ing crazy". Oh, and before someone says "well theres not going to be a mobile GPU that could handle that res"; not true, even now theres some great emerging technologies that have handled concurrent instances of 1080p (like 10 displays)...much less whats going to be available in 2012(if we survive the world ending:) Furthermore, native apps like iBooks/iTunes/etc dont require heavy processing to display hi res. Sorry man, youre wrong.
PS: Take it easy on the *
what did Apple do with the iP4? Oh wait...
As far as Devs are concerned, they 2x the res for their ease. Sorry, its not that "****ing crazy". Oh, and before someone says "well theres not going to be a mobile GPU that could handle that res"; not true, even now theres some great emerging technologies that have handled concurrent instances of 1080p (like 10 displays)...much less whats going to be available in 2012(if we survive the world ending:) Furthermore, native apps like iBooks/iTunes/etc dont require heavy processing to display hi res. Sorry man, youre wrong.
PS: Take it easy on the *
Timepass
Aug 12, 02:33 AM
Apple won't put GPS in unless they can create a whole new 'Apple' interface for it.
I'm no GPS expert, but I'm not sure how they could do that with a simple candybar phone. It would need to be some sort of smartphone / pocketPC thing.
if they want to work with US law they will put GPS in it. I dont remember when all call company have it done by but after a certain point all companiy must be able to find anyone with in so many feet when a 911 call is made. most chose to go the GPS route for that.
Also I know my 3 last sprint flip phones all had GPS and I know the verizon razer has GPS in it.
And I pretty sure cingular phones have GPS in it since they all have the ableity to use mapping programs for the phones.
I'm no GPS expert, but I'm not sure how they could do that with a simple candybar phone. It would need to be some sort of smartphone / pocketPC thing.
if they want to work with US law they will put GPS in it. I dont remember when all call company have it done by but after a certain point all companiy must be able to find anyone with in so many feet when a 911 call is made. most chose to go the GPS route for that.
Also I know my 3 last sprint flip phones all had GPS and I know the verizon razer has GPS in it.
And I pretty sure cingular phones have GPS in it since they all have the ableity to use mapping programs for the phones.
Bill McEnaney
Mar 1, 04:47 AM
"Homosexuality," Plato wrote, "is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce." This attitude of Plato's was characteristic of the ancient world, and I want to begin my discussion of the attitudes of the Church and of Western Christianity toward homosexuality by commenting on comparable attitudes among the ancients.
Dr. Josiah B. Gould, the Plato scholar who taught me Ancient Philosophy, told us that, that although homosexuality was common among Greek aristocrats in ancient Greece, to them, sodomy was repugnant.
Dr. Josiah B. Gould, the Plato scholar who taught me Ancient Philosophy, told us that, that although homosexuality was common among Greek aristocrats in ancient Greece, to them, sodomy was repugnant.
SPUY767
Nov 28, 10:12 PM
Actually, they do. They also got paid on every blank tape sold when cassettes were big. I think it is crazy for everyone to think that the music industry is greedy when it getting squeezed out of all of their revenue streams. So, Apple makes hundreds of millions off of their back on the itunes site, and a billion off of iPod sales, and they cannot share in the wealth?
It doesn't cost the consumer any more, why wouldn't you want the people who actually make the music you are listening to get compensated?
This debate is stale. People want something for nothing.
Just so you know, flame bait is almost always ignored. So don't bother.
It doesn't cost the consumer any more, why wouldn't you want the people who actually make the music you are listening to get compensated?
This debate is stale. People want something for nothing.
Just so you know, flame bait is almost always ignored. So don't bother.
Sydde
Apr 27, 06:17 PM
The bigger deal here is the tendency of some fathers to name their kids the EXACT same name they have and add a "2nd". I've always thought that practice couldn't be stupidier. :P
Reminds me of how the producers felt compelled to drop the three from the movie "The Madness of King George III" because they were afraid people would give a pass as they had not seen the first two parts.
Reminds me of how the producers felt compelled to drop the three from the movie "The Madness of King George III" because they were afraid people would give a pass as they had not seen the first two parts.
Mattie Num Nums
Mar 31, 02:47 PM
If Apple FAD goes away, where will Google copy from next?
You are delusional if you think Google is not building upon the Apple FAD.
What the heck are you talking about. Google is building upon the technology. Apple did a great job advancing the technology which pushed everyone else to do the same. Its called competition its been happening for years and in every industry.
You are delusional if you think Google is not building upon the Apple FAD.
What the heck are you talking about. Google is building upon the technology. Apple did a great job advancing the technology which pushed everyone else to do the same. Its called competition its been happening for years and in every industry.
whatever
Aug 25, 03:53 PM
I've called Apple twice in the past week (on Saturday morning and this morning) and I received excellent support both times!
They answered my questions in a very timely manner.
I'm very hard on Support people because I did Technical Support for years and expect the highest level of support, which I've always received from Apple.
I've also been a .Mac subscriber since it was released and I've never had a problem with it. Yes, I'm currently getting those stupid stock SPAMS, but so is everyone else. I always check to see the address of where the e-mail is coming from, waiting for that day that my addresss is there and I've never see a .mac.com address in the "From" column. It's a great service and much better than the other e-mail services that I use.
They answered my questions in a very timely manner.
I'm very hard on Support people because I did Technical Support for years and expect the highest level of support, which I've always received from Apple.
I've also been a .Mac subscriber since it was released and I've never had a problem with it. Yes, I'm currently getting those stupid stock SPAMS, but so is everyone else. I always check to see the address of where the e-mail is coming from, waiting for that day that my addresss is there and I've never see a .mac.com address in the "From" column. It's a great service and much better than the other e-mail services that I use.
JFreak
Aug 19, 03:11 AM
this kinds of benchmarks show clearly that the world is not yet ready for Universally Better appplications. Quad G5 still rocks as a production system, but it would surely be nice to give those new Mac Pro's a test drive; however, it would be rather lame, as not nearly all audio plugins have been converted. For myself -- for that very reason -- the Intel-era begins in 2008 at the earliest. I want zero crashes when I mix.
zero2dash
Jul 20, 09:24 AM
...Quad Duo?
...Quadra Duo?
...the "holy hell this is faster than you'll ever need" Mac? :D
...Quadra Duo?
...the "holy hell this is faster than you'll ever need" Mac? :D
krcbkidz
Mar 22, 05:10 PM
The difference is Samsung outsources it's OS development, it's developer community management, it's app ecosystem.
Cost competitive doesn't experience competitive.
I think for 'spec' people (hard core coders, corp types that need to control configuration), Samsung (and more importantly, when HP gets in the game HP), will compete there.... HOWEVER, this is a consumer run market, and much like a Sony WalkMan back in the day, or RollerBlades([tm]... the rest were 'inline skates'), Apple is 'defining' the market... and the rest are just knockoffs.
And unlike the old BMW pricing explanation(excuse) for Macs (equal specs and quality... from Apple HP and Dell are about the same in price) Apple is pushing iPad's experience at the BMW levels, but at Honda prices.
And RIM and samsung are pushing mid 80's GM quality against a 2012 BMW at honda prices, when the market will probably demand Kia prices for the 'experience'
Likes this :-)
Cost competitive doesn't experience competitive.
I think for 'spec' people (hard core coders, corp types that need to control configuration), Samsung (and more importantly, when HP gets in the game HP), will compete there.... HOWEVER, this is a consumer run market, and much like a Sony WalkMan back in the day, or RollerBlades([tm]... the rest were 'inline skates'), Apple is 'defining' the market... and the rest are just knockoffs.
And unlike the old BMW pricing explanation(excuse) for Macs (equal specs and quality... from Apple HP and Dell are about the same in price) Apple is pushing iPad's experience at the BMW levels, but at Honda prices.
And RIM and samsung are pushing mid 80's GM quality against a 2012 BMW at honda prices, when the market will probably demand Kia prices for the 'experience'
Likes this :-)
